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Meet The Dental Amigos – Episode 1a (continued)

This is the second part of The Dental Amigos first podcast. In the conclusion to this episode Rob and Paul chat about what to look for when interviewing/hiring a practice broker (including the ramifications of hiring a bad one), the farce that is “Dual Representation” (including the pitfalls to avoid when working with one) and the process of working with a broker and attorney when buying or selling a practice. Take a peek behind the curtain of the practice transition world with The Dental Amigos!

The Dental Amigos Podcast

Full Transcript

Introduction: Welcome to the Dental Amigos podcast with Dr. Paul Goodman and attorney Rob Montgomery taking you behind the scenes of the dental business world. All the things you didn't learn in dental school, but wish you had. Rob Is not a dentist and Paul is not a lawyer, but since rob is a lawyer, we need to tell you that this podcast is for informational purposes only and it shouldn't be considered legal advice listening to this podcast not and will not create an attorney client relationship as is always the case. You should formerly consult with legal counsel before proceeding with any legal matter. Learn more about the dental and and now here are the dental amigos.

Rob: All right, good to have the head Nacho back in the house. Welcome Amigo

Paul: Hey rob, looking forward to another great episode. Big News to announce two right here we have an exciting announcement. The first Dental Amigo CE conference Friday, March 9th the Saturday, March 10th featuring dentistry's how to speaker Doctor Cory Glenn.

Rob: So, yeah, when you say the first see a conference for the dental, let me, I guess that's the first, since we start doing a podcast, but we've, we've done see events before and you, Paul are the, uh, the Ce king in the Philadelphia area for sure.

Paul: Okay. Thanks Rob. It's one of my passions. See and picking out a great menu for people. So that is, that is my thing.

Rob: You do it well. Uh, and we always had a good time too. And um, we've got some good people, uh, lined up for our event. We're going to do it at the historic union league and right here on broad street, a few blocks from, uh, from the office where we did an event last year and I think this one's going to be even better. Uh, so anybody, uh, he's in Philadelphia definitely come and if you're not from Philadelphia, we'd love to have you. We've got a good deal and our room block at the Union League. So it's a good excuse to come to Philadelphia and a mingle with some dentists and uh, take on some good CE and see the town

Paul: You can do, you can be part of movie history where Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy fan film trading places. So check out the for more information and tickets.

Rob: Sounds good. Now how about we continue our conversation on navigating the dental broker world.

Paul: What I find amazing is, and I hope we get a lot of different dentists of all ages, uh, listening to our podcast. It's sellers could interview more than one broker. It's very interesting. They, the seller has worked on this practice. It's been that their child or another version of their child for 40 years, they sell it. They go to one meeting, they meet one broker and that's the only way they ever think about selling their practice. And sometimes they just get in a bad situation where I know, and you know, uh, when a buyer comes to us and they're dealing with a certain brokerage company, it's going to be a challenge. Sometimes it's going to be a total non workable situation.

Rob: Yeah. Well, and, and, and brokers are, you know, our advisors to the seller. And you have, I think to your point, you have to choose your advisor well because if, if you're going to rely on them to say, is this a good deal or what the buyer asking for in this regard, is that commercially reasonable? Is it the norm? You want somebody that that gets it, but somebody that's out there in the, in the world and they're going to give you good advice so that you could sell your practice, not necessarily tell you everything you want to hear, right? It's a different story or tell you things that make it more, uh, you know, make the practice of greater interest to people. But, uh, you have to choose your advisor. Well,

Paul: I think it was the most important is that, and I'm learning this because I bought practices, I'm selling practices, I look for other practices myself. And I think the biggest problem brokers have with the sellers, and I guess I understand it from a sales perspective. So this at the end of the day as a sales type job, it's sort of, I was a server for 10 years, so I guess you could call that a sales job too, but I've never been in this world in that they will mismanage the sellers' expectations right up front as to what the practice is worth and what the value is going to be. So it gets them excited and I think they know in their brokers heart that it's probably not going to sell for that price, but the seller's happy and engages them and lists and they know down the line the the 800 is going to turn to 500 or 800 600 but that seller never forget that first number. So Bob Septic or works for me. He's trained me very well and I, I appreciate it cause we, we dig into the numbers. He tells me about the evaluation and he talks about it in a way that I go back to the seller and say, Hey, this million dollar practice, we're going to ask asking price of $750,000. However, based on all your numerics and your financials, if you get an offer of $650,000 it's a good offer and I say that right up front to the seller and they never forget that first conversation. So obviously they hope that they get the highest price. Anybody would want that. But also I think one of the misconceptions out there, but being a seller's market, it can be, it can be favorable to sellers in certain areas, but you still need that one person to purchase your practice and it's, it's not exactly like a home. Well, this is an important point. It's not like where there's an open house for a home and a real estate agent brings by 20 people at 10th and spruce and shows people the house. It's, it's a labor intensive process to even see a practice. So that's why the sellers think, oh, the broker told me I'm going to list this practice is going to sell in two weeks and I'll listen to it. It's just, it's mismanaged it. And then the nicest way possible. I can say it, it's really mismanaging their expectations and sets the whole situation up for a lot of challenges on both ends.

Rob: Well not to mention too, even if it's a seller's market, it doesn't mean you could sell it for whatever price you for the light. At the end of the day, the buyer still, you have to find a buyer and that buyer more than likely has to get financing, right? So if you think your practice is worth 50% more than than it really is, you're not going to be able to sell it. And then you run into the same situation that you do when you're trying to sell your house for the wrong price, which is that practice has been on the market for a year. It must be something wrong.

Paul: I mean, you know, it's a, yeah, people will say that to me now though. People, buyers, you know, we'll pass on a practice and I'll tell them sometimes in a totally genuine way, this is a good opportunity for you. And you know, there's five buyers for this practice. And I think someone's going to buy this practice and I think you should be one of them. And I'll, it's not a sales tip trick, it's me. I teach residents, I teach younger dentist. I mean I feel, I'm genuinely like I want to help them. And they'll say, they'll pick out one piece of the practice they don't like that could usually be changed and they say, I pass. And then two months go by and that same buyer calls me back on the phone and said, hey, does that practice ever sell? And I said, yeah, it's, it's under contract now. And they go, Oh, I should've, I should've, I should've put that offer. And I said, I told you should have put that offer in. So it cuts both ways. But I think the management of the expectation of both ends and there's a lot of good podcasts out there now and other information, hopefully we can make some changes in this world ourselves because I think it would be really valuable for people's stress level, I think for people's understanding of this process because it's just a lot of misinformation out there. On the whole process and that, that's what I found to be causing a lot of the, I guess, broker, broker work on my end.

Rob: The interesting thing they said is, you know, why do people just go and hire Ben Burgers? And, and you know, I'd never really thought of that before. And, uh, so it sounds like what you see is somebody going to have inflated expectations as to what the sale price is, is one of the things I have to wonder too, that it's just human nature to that, you know, like how many people do you feel like, you know, it's just laziness, like, yeah, sure, yeah, I met her, she was giving a seminar. She seemed fine. I'll just hire her. Right. You know, and, and you know, as by virtue of, you know, we're talking about this and it's an important topic as it really does matter. What broker you, you hire, I mean, this is not just like hiring an order taker has to really present and, and promote your practice.

Paul: You know, it's, it did, this is such a valuable thing to talk about from the seller or the buyer, but mainly the seller. You're going to spend a fair amount of time talking, texting and emailing with this person better. And I have developed quite the relationship. I have a deal going on now where I want to go back to my Verizon and, and dig out how many text messages we've sent. Cause I think it will be like trying to figure out the jelly beans in a jar. And I'd be like way more than what your thought. So the seller and the broker, you know, and then you know what's interesting as a dentist, I'm 40 now, I can develop, I have a red flag mechanisms when I'm seeing patients and I can say up, this person is gonna be a tough customer. I'm going to refer on to a specialist. I don't have all those mechanisms as a broker yet. So I'm like a new dentist where I have taken on some possible sellers I might not take on in the future. And I've learned, learned that myself, because it's a true relationship. And then the seller, you know, that's, that's another thing too. You see it, I mean, it's just like anyone else. I'm being asked if I have to get my paperwork together for financing with Bank of America, it's a big process. And if I get it together, I'm probably going to use bank of America. I'm just using examples. So when this seller gets all their stuff together, you're right, they're probably not going to go and bring it to another broker. So they should better just to choose wisely upfront. And I would give dentists a lot of credit if I heard them say, you know what? I interviewed another broker. I'm interviewing you. Here's what I had to say. I would really give that dentist, I would think they're really doing some good due diligence on the process.

Rob: Yeah. I think it's important. Yeah. So Paul, um, let's, uh, let's shift gears a little bit, uh, subject that the, uh, that you and I have discussed a lot and we've talked about with the, with a lot of our colleagues in the space. The issue of dual representation. Yeah. What do we think about dual represents?

Paul: Well, first of all, is it as a, I will have to have, we want to be honest, as a, as a dental consumer, prior to meeting Rob Montgomery and prior to doing all of these things, it sounded good to me, right? Because for the dental customer, whether you're the buyer, the seller, there's a, the word itself sounds like I'm going to save money on some legal fees. But there's a catch. And now that I've dug into this world, so there's different versions of this in the brokerage world and, and you, you're really the expert, but I'll talk both as a broker and a and a dental purchaser myself, you know, there's some dual representation, a brokerage companies where they really worked for the seller and they charge the buyer a modest fee for bringing them this practice. Our company only charges the seller fee. There's no fee to the buyer that we were, I always say this to, this is a good point. I say this to the, to the buyer, I work for the seller. I work with you. So one of the things I wanted to spell right off the bat is there's, and maybe you know, people have learned the hard way. Maybe I'm unaware of all this, unaware of all these situations where they say "the brokers just going to inflate the price to the seller gets the best deal." Well, if they did that all the time, they would never sell any practices, right? So they have to, I have to work with the buyer. Many times in some of these transactions I spend 10 x talking to the buyer versus the seller. Sometimes it's hours said, here's my stuff, bring me the guy. I set them up to see the guy. So promoting the practice. So I'm working with the buyer. So even though the buyer under United on brokers scenario, I get paid $0 million from the buyer. But we work together a lot and we work, we are talking, um, kinda connecting people, but we're not a dual representation. Brokers from dual representation to me is sometimes in the, in a somewhat of a more benign, since they charge a modest fee to the buyer, modest as well. It turns, turns out with one company we pay, I'll be honest with us, we paid a five. There was a practice near us in a desirable area. It's our satellite. We paid a $5,000 fee to the company. That was it. And I thought it was a little bit of a vigorous and I thought it was just a little, to be honest, a little greedy. However, I maybe I would fight this today if I was doing my next satellite and say I'm not paying because I know that that is getting the commission from the seller, but I paid it. I was younger and it didn't, it wasn't a huge deal to me. But what is a huge deal as other companies where they will make the buyer pay essentially a percentage of what the seller's commission should be? Which can be a lot of money. Yeah. So if people are think that's a really huge deal because I'm coaching someone now through one of these transitions with one of these companies doing it and I current, you're on the buyers and the buyer's side, I'm the buyer buyers, I'm coaching him and the asking price, we're just going to say the asking price is $800,000. I said, based on the numerics, that's too much. I said, you should offer $675,00. I said also you should offer $675,000 if I was selling the practice, I'll even give them, he has this, this person, if he bought the practice, let's say they get the $700,000 he has to pay a $21,000 vigorous to purchase this practice. So you have to really actually incorporate that into your letter of intent and what you offer

Rob: Unless you just going to write a check from your bank account for 21 grand. That's going to be part of the loan.

Paul: And I mean, you know, since this is our, uh, talking real stuff on track practice transitions here, I find that they're very, you know, the best way to put it is that I, in this buyer coaching, I'm doing two situations with two brokerage companies. One is dual representation, one is not. But the dual representation, the broker's acting a little bit like a bully because there's the broker saying that you can only use our banks, which isn't even a thing. Right? So that's, that to me is crazy. They say that we do not negotiate on the purchase price. Again, that doesn't make real sense, but they're trying to paint this somewhat naive buyer into a corner. And I, I guess they found that the strategy has worked. I mean, you've worked with them, so does this work? I mean, they're in business doing it. So

Rob: Well, it depends what your business model is, you know, do you want to have a business model that helps people succeed and you put buyers and sellers together for good transitions or you know, are you interested in just trying to, you know, make as much money off the deal as you possibly can. Uh, you know, to me the whole concept of dual representation means you are representing both sides. And when somebody who is a dual representation broker, tell us a buyer that I am your representative, that means something, right? From a fiduciary standpoint, you know, I'm a lawyer, I can't represent the buyer.

Paul: So you said it's just as simple as not being able to serve two masters. So it's, it's uh, it's total conflict. It's a complete top. Yeah.

Rob: The whole thing too. I mean, to some extent, what we see is the whole, the broker industry and the dental world is sort of modeled after the real estate industry in terms of commissions and sales and listings and things like that, which is fine most of the time. But one thing that people have to keep in mind in states, brokers are not regulated, right? So Paul, you have a license, you have a state board of dentistry. I have a license, I have to deal with a bar association or the State Supreme Court, uh, architects, physicians, vets all these people have a state board and they have regs and rules that they have to follow. Even realtors do, you know? And so, but when it comes to dental brokers, there are no rules and regulations. I mean, they can do whatever they want. And so even in the real estate world where this whole dual representation thing was created, uh, I have, I'm skeptical about that because what they've done is they've taken what is a legal concept of fiduciary duty and turns it on its head to make it seem like you can have two masters in the law you can't have a fiduciary duty to people whose interests are divergent. And the most state laws for realtors carve out an exception for that. And there are certain requirements. There's a reason why if you're going to work with a dual agent in most states to buy, uh, buy a house, for example, there's a form that says disclosure, big capital letters at the top. You are hiring us, we represent both sides. You should go talk to your own person and know that we're not your representative only and things you tell us we can share with the other side. You know, I don't see that, uh, the practice brokers who are duel representation of brokers do that.

Paul: It's a good point because even when at the beginning back to my situation and I probably where we, I paid the modest fee, I did get grief from the broker about bringing their contracts to my attorney, which I don't think was fair because, you know, the dual representation broker really does try to keep everybody else out. And it's, you know, I think it's really just only to the buyer's risk because I, the seller's seems to be sitting there possibly getting the top purchase price and getting everything. I mean, maybe the seller is at risk from a legal perspective.

Rob: I mean the dual representation, the impact and the risk of that is definitely more on the buyer. Just like in any deal, any acquisition, most of the risk is on the buyer. I mean if you are a seller, what do you care about? You care about that you get your purchase price, you care that there's nothing in the agreement that's going to come back to surprise you after the fact. And that the covenant not to compete is consistent with what your plan is after that.

Paul: One of the things I think it would be good to bring up at this dual representation part to help manage the expectations of buyers is, you know, they really need to think about, if you're thinking about buying a practice, you need to think about setting up a savings account for yourself or your marketing funds because you're going to have to hire your own team of advisors. That's well worth it because sometimes I'll just use a number. It's well worth it to pay $10,000 not to lose $1 million. So it's, and I think that's one of the, I think and I understand, go through dental school, you have debt, it's challenging and you're looking to save. But sometimes you know the adage penny wise, dollar four was really comes to, comes into mind because you know, we've worked together with connecting people to each other many times. And I, I always feel good about connecting people to you cause I know they're taking care of and I've done them a service. I, what you might not realize is whether it's a employment contract, whether it's somebody to buy a practice. Dentist will spend $20,000 learning a new procedure in their office and they're not even sure if this procedure is a good risk or can make them any money. However, if I then say I need you to spend half of that getting some good legal advice, sometimes it's accounting advice, it could be anything. They don't see the value in it. And it takes my me real convincing. But there I've never had anyone come back to me, which is amazing. And it's a testament to you and your team and also hopefully other people in this space. I'd never had anyone complain afterwards that they engaged a professional. They may say it was an expense that they hadn't planned for, but they're always happy because what, you know what I, what I use is my buyer coaching, which is a lot of times we're just sounding boards for these people going through the baby process of their dental life. You know, they want to have a sounding board. I mean, this is a perfect example. I'll share my own, you know, when we had our child, we hired a Doula to be there when we got home. My best friend who's just a brilliant guy, he's a hedge fund guy in New York and he has four kids. And I always thought of him as the most competent, competent person I knew on the planet. And when he had his first child, six years before me, he goes, it's really scary. They give you this child and they say, just go home with it. You know? And I used to think, you've got to throw all these licenses [inaudible] you want to be a Barista at Starbucks? He had to pass a test. A child don't just keep, just continue on. Yeah. So, so it's actually a really cool, to me it's nuts. I mean, it's just a nuts part of our society. It seems to work out well. I know, unfortunately it doesn't always work out well, but they do just let you go home with these these childre. I said when I, it happens to me, I'm going to hire this Doula who's going to be with us for two weeks and she's gonna be there every other night. And it made it, it was well worth the security of having somebody who deals with babies all the time. Neither of US had in laws that we're going to be there with us all the time. And I said to myself, this is the most important thing I'm doing right and I'm going to bring this seven pound child home and I want someone there to make me feel better about the process. And that's what these buyers should think about when they're doing these transitions because there's so many parts to it. They need people like that. The Rob Montgomerys, the buyer coaches, the accountants, and I think there's a lack of - nowhere in our dental school lives do they tell us to do this. You and I are work at, I bring you into temple and Einstein to at least talk about employment contracts and a good point to bring out now when the buyer world is, I will talk to somebody who wants to buy a practice in this location at this place. And all I simply say to them is, do you have any restrictions with your restrictive covenant? And they say, I don't know. Let me check. Which is a bad answer, because that means they've never, never really looked at their contract. Likely a lawyer hasn't. Right. And then they come back and now they're 35 years old. They bought a home, they have two kids and they have a contract that doesn't even allow them to buy a practice within 10 miles of where they are. So, I mean there's, there's a, just a need for buyer representation and that's why the dual representation, the buyers can really get taken for a proverbial ride.

Rob: Well, yeah, there's so much more that the buyer has to look at then. Then the seller and the buyer is the one that needs the protection and look, no offense, Paul, my friend and client. Um, but anybody who's a buyer buying a practice who just relies on what the broker tells them when the other side is, is really kidding themselves. Oh, I totally agree. Was up for a huge profit. And I know you talked to the people in that situation and tell them you have to go talk to a lawyer. And you know, because you're, you're really, you're an honorable guy and a, you're not trying to, to flam people, but there are a lot of brokers out there that will be more than happy to give that kind of advice and say, yeah, yeah, you're fine. You know, and you have to, as a buyer, you need to be working with a team that's willing to tell you this is not good. You know, whether you know, it's your, uh, your lawyer, your CPA, somebody that's, that's has your interest in mind first foremost and solely. And even, you know, with, with the broker, even the ones that are good, you know, look, there's, as you said, Paul, you represent the seller. You know, and, and you're getting paid because the transaction closes.

Paul: And he says, well I guess I realized, and I'm, I'm, I'm sort of proud and happy to be giving this insider information because Alan from Dental Hacks, when he first met me, he said, why are you a broker? Are you disabled? Are you retired? You'd lose your license? I said, no, none of those things. He goes, cause that's the only dentist I know where brokers in any of that, it's not always fair cause there's some good Dennis to brokers, but most, most dentists are not practicing and doing brokering to some degree. Most. So I have a unique 27 hours yet. Yeah. Right. Thanks. I mean I've got the extra thanks. [inaudible]. Yeah, that's the, I know it looks more glamorous than this, but I really am happy to be this insider person here because what I will tell you, even doing this for 18 months and I liked being a broker and I feel like it's going to be part of my life. It fits into everything that I like to do with helping and talking to dentists, but the brokers have way too much power, but it's a lot like if we're our listeners, it's like the general dentist has a lot of power over the patient. The General Dentists Sees Robin, his family all the time, and when it's time for your daughter and to get braces, I can tell you, go to Dr. Smith two blocks away. He is the best guy around to go to and you're going to go, because you've known me for 30 years now in the broker world, it's not as dramatic, but I'm the one that develops the relationship with everybody. I'm the one who answers the questions. I'm the one that's around. So I developed this power much like if I came home in the said do 10 jumping jacks or your daughter sleeps, I would just be doing them and it would just be cookie talk by Kramer says. So it's really amazing and I wield that power responsibly a lot of times cause I'm doing a deal right now, which is pretty amazing. You know, even though what do I like to dispel is the broker has to get the deal done or else nothing good happens, right? Nobody gets paid, no one gets a practice and a lot of time gets wasted. So, you know, I will a lot of times provide referrals and recommendations for everybody in the entire process. Attorneys for both people, banks, accountants, consultants. But that power can be used I guess for evil too. So it's a, uh, it's an, it's very interesting dentist I think because they have no idea really what's going on so to speak. So they have this one person who they know and that person can direct them in different ways.

Rob: Oh yeah. And, and look, part of the problem with dual representation too, aside from Dora presentation in and of itself is problematic, is the way that the brokers who are engaged in that conduct themselves and, and then so it's not just that they're dual representatives, they also prepare the agreements, you know, and, uh, you know, we've seen, uh, promotional materials from some of these, uh, from some of these brokers that actually make it seem like it's a good thing. Like, Hey, you don't have to pay a lawyer to, uh, to be involved in this transaction, will prepare the documents. And it says in the, in the forums and the disclosures, you should share this to your attorney. But they discourage them. Right and so the reality is they're representing both sides and preparing legal documents for which you can imagine. Paul drives us crazy years because you know, a lot of people, I think I have a misconception that, well, whatever you put in the document, just put something in and it doesn't matter. You know, it's boiler plate. Give me the standard asset purchase agreement, like yeah, we start with a standard asset purchase agreement, but we make changes to it. And it's not even just the document itself. I mean, that's just like the, the Scribner part of our job. There's also the, the, the counseling and the advisory component to what we do, which is where we're telling people this is a problem. Here's what you need to do, here's what you need to look at. These are the things that you should be doing. The quote unquote, the mere document is just part of what we do. But even from a document standpoint, you shouldn't have one person preparing, negotiating and advising both sides and the document. It's impossible. It's like saying, you know, if you ran into somebody, you know, and, and we'll, you know, we're in Philadelphia and I'm going to throw you under the bus ball. You'd have, which I learned in one of the podcasts that you did that, that you're a giants fan, but for all their success, but it's okay. And, uh, so, but it's like if you meet somebody and they're like, yeah, uh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm an NFL fan. Well, who are your favorite? Who's your team? Well, I like the eagles and the giants. A real, yeah, that's exactly what, what you, you know, it's a really excellent, it's not possible.

Paul: That brings me, I mean, I have a lot of broad Montgomery Isms, which I use repurpose. I don't know if I'm allowed to or not, but I do it anyway. And they're, they're great. Catchphrase is about, I mean, one is, you know, if people are unreasonable upfront, they rarely get more reasonable. So that's important. So I say that the, both the buyer and the seller a lot of times, because if there's a situation where some were super unreasonable about some point right off the bat, it's usually going to be the, an unworkable situation. But what's important is what I've learned from watching you and your team is your goal is to get the deal done. And like you've said, there's not supposed to be a winner and a loser because that's not a good transition. So you wouldn't have a lot of clients if you never got deals done. So I think there's this, the broker something that makes it seem if you bring it to your own attorney, well they're just going to mess up the whole thing for you. But you, that's not, you would have no motive to not help someone get their practice. Your motive is to be responsible. You're basically trying to be, you know, get the deal done responsibly

Rob: But that's like, you know, people are able to trade in fear. If you're a broker that's trying to keep lawyers out, where are you going to tell both sides? You know, that you have to come up with something that would make it seem like it's bad for them. And you're absolutely right. And there are some lawyers that that try to quote unquote win in the transaction. That's not our style. I mean, we're not out to, to prove that we can get certain things or that we can pull one over on the other side or set these little booby traps for the other side because it's not productive for our client. Our client comes to us because they want to buy a dental practice, for example. We're going to help them buy a dental practice and we're going to try to do whatever we can to make that deal work without exposing them to unnecessary risk. You know? And in the dental transition, which we'll call it that again, or a partnership or a marriage or anything, uh, any kind of relationship, any relationship where there's a winner and a loser is a relationship that's doomed.

Paul: Yeah, it's 100% sure when this happens. We, you, you've helped us and I have two wonderful associates. I had three. And you write the agreements for them and I mean of people listening, hope they run and get their agreements that they have one or at least consider having you look. Then we put something on dental nachos about how many dentists have you even had an employment agreement? And looked at and unfortunately very few. And that's a tremendous risk for the when they want to buy the practice. And uh, when I do agreements with you and your team and I want them to be fair to the people signing the agreement. I just want it to be a responsible, you know, responsible document that manages both our expectations and they know it. We're not going to delve into agreements now, but I, I think it's just an important starter point or important practicing point for Dennis is just get used to reading things, talking to an attorney, learning about the industry and if they align themselves with the right people, sometimes that comes back to help them tremendously later when an attorney like yourself knows of a practice being salt or you know, we'll, you know, banks are doing that. So I think there's a reluctance for these dentists to build the relationship. Maybe for our next podcast we can talk about building the team and how that helps because I think it's just important to start engaging people in all different aspects well before you want to buy the practice.

Rob: Absolutely. You know? Well, it's the same thing where you're hiring a lawyer or a CPA or hiring a broker. You should interview those people and make your, you know, uh, your thoughts, you know, known to them. Let them know what your goals are, what your objectives are and, and tell them like, look, my, my deal here is I want to sell this practice a in a fair way and I want a fair contract. You know, don't go and seek out a lawyer that's going to try to, to basically pull the wool over the eyes of the other side. You can't say, and again, a lot of the dual representation brokers are able to trade in that fear that if you get a lawyer involved, they're just going to make it, you know, acrimonious and it's going to be expensive and go back and forth lots of times and spend money. No, a good lawyer doesn't do that. Are there lawyers out there that would do it there? Quote Unquote bad lawyers? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all lawyers are bad and that because of that, you should just accept whatever advice you were dual representation agent tells you or gives you. So don't kill the aunt with the elephant. It's also another point department. Find a good lawyer.

Paul: And when you're 40, like me and you have all these things going on, like you don't have to be, I'm just very, my catch phrase, I'm too busy to be successful. So like I don't know where I'm at with all the things I'm doing, but I'm doing a lot of different things, right? So I'm exploring new projects right now. There's dentists, they want to buy 10 practices. I say, well start with one practice than two practices as we get to ten one day. But it's a big road to get to. So that's another point of what you do is that, you know, for first time buyer you might be, they might be spending money if you just say, hey, this is not the situation you want to be in. And that's very worthwhile, right? Where they would quote unquote potentially lose money or risk their financial future. But people like myself, let's say 35 to 50 year old people, 35 ways were have practices, have income, but we want to do other things, right? It's also we're paying someone like yourself to protect us from being really annoyed for the next 10 years. Cause sometimes you know, you'll say, you know, someone probably comes to say, I want to buy this other practice. I have two practices and it's just not a good decision. It's not even always a bad financial decision. It could be a bad energy use for the dentist. So I think it's just the things that you can bring to the table to help these dentists are just, I think they're totally unaware that people like you were out there doing that.

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