This week, the Dental Amigos welcome Dr. Deren Flesher—dentist, entrepreneur, coach, and co-host of the Wealth Beyond the White Coat podcast. In addition to owning and selling a successful dental practice, Deren is a Dental Success Institute (DSI) Blackbelt Coach and founder of the Legacy Point Group, a community for dentists focused on wealth-building, tax strategy, and income diversification.

In this episode, Deren shares his personal journey from private practice owner to dental software founder to strategic investor. He opens up about how his desire for family time and personal freedom inspired him to partner with a DSO and intentionally “retire early,” while keeping his license and options open. Deren discusses the often-overlooked opportunity for dentists to transition from trading time for money to generating income from alternative investments—whether in real estate, oil & gas, or equipment-based businesses.

To learn more about Deren’s investment community, visit LegacyPointGroup.com or reach out to him directly at deren@legacypointgroup.com. You can also find his podcast, Wealth Beyond the White Coat, on all major platforms.

Listeners who want to reach Paul can do so at Paul@DentalNachos.com and those who want to reach Rob can do so at Rob@RMontgomery-law.com.

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

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Bumper  

Welcome to the dental amigos podcast with Dr Paul Goodman and attorney Rob Montgomery, taking you behind the scenes of the dental business world, all the things you didn't learn in dental school, but wish you had Rob is not a dentist, and Paul is not a lawyer, but since Rob is a lawyer, we need to tell you that this podcast is for informational purposes only and shouldn't be considered legal advice. Listening to this podcast does not and will not create an attorney client relationship, as is always the case. You should formally consult with legal counsel before proceeding with any legal matter. Learn more about the dental amigos at www.thedentalamigos.com. And now here are the dental amigos.

Rob Montgomery  

Well, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Dental Amigos Podcast, the only podcast hosted by a lawyer and a dentist. I'm Rob Montgomery, and I'm joined, as always, by the Head Nacho himself, Dr. Paul Goodman.

Paul Goodman  

Great to be here talking, Rob.

Rob Montgomery  

It's good talking with you, Paul. And we've got another great guest today: Dr. Deren Fletcher, who is a dentist by training and a dental practice owner, but he has transitioned away from clinical dentistry. He is the founder of Legacy Point Group and the host of the Wealth Beyond the White Coat podcast, which is a great podcast that educates dentists and physicians on financial strategies outside of the traditional medical practice. He really focuses on helping high-income professionals explore alternative investments, tax planning, and wealth-building strategies that enable them to achieve financial independence and enjoy a balanced lifestyle. We're really excited to have him on the show today, and without further ado—welcome, Amigo, and thanks for being on the show.

Deren Flesher

Hey guys, thanks for having me on I'm really excited about it.

Paul Goodman  

We always start now with a hard-hitting question. If we were in your area, where would we go for nachos? What's your favorite place, and what is your favorite topping?

Deren Flesher

So, there's a place—there's a couple locations around the Oklahoma City area—that is called Teds, and they are kind of known for their quantities. But they also, you know, make the tortillas right there in front of you. You can watch it being made behind a window. And I think it's maybe Monday where, like, your kids can eat free. We don't take them up on that as much as we should. But as far as the topping, anything that has avocado or guacamole on it’s going to get my attention, whether it's nachos or a burger or otherwise. So, I would say guacamole is going to be an easy answer for me.

Paul Goodman  

II like that. They are—they are buds in the DSO. So, they're very like-minded.

Rob Montgomery  

These guys are geographically closer to Mexico than we are, and the Mexican restaurants that they like have very generic American-sounding names. Meanwhile, I guess when you're in Philadelphia, you have to make it sound more Mexican.

Paul Goodman  

Yeah, I like that. Not such a fun food. People are sending me photos. You ever see where they put the nachos on an entire table? I don't know how hygienic it is, but, you know—not just, you know—there's a lot of, lot of fundamental. Thanks for sharing that, Deren.

Deren Flesher

Yeah, there's a—there's a food challenge guy that somehow I get sucked into his YouTube videos, and he did. There's a food challenge there at Ted’s. I don't remember how—it’s like a 13-pound burrito or something crazy, and you have so much time to eat it. And I've always wondered, you know, if I—in my younger days, in my 20s—if I could have tackled that thing. But anyway, they're kind of famous for, like I said, their quantities, and that's one of their deals: they got this gigantic burrito that almost nobody can take down. So, very interesting.

Rob Montgomery  

Bigger is better, as they say, right? Hey, Deren, so, you know, before we start getting into more substance of—of what you do, generally, like, how did you make the transition from practicing dentist to financial advisor?

Deren Flesher

So, I'm not a registered financial advisor, just for clarity. I'm just a dentist and a colleague and a mentor in that regard. But as far as my journey and level of interest in that world, it's just kind of been organically what I've been doing myself for the better part of the last decade—kind of similarly parallel to this. I've always kind of worn multiple hats in dentistry. When I did my startup practice back in 2015, as you know, the nature of a startup means you don't have any clientele and you don't have any money. So when I opened my practice, it was a three-day-a-week, 12-hour-a-day practice, and we've still maintained that schedule to this day, but it afforded me a couple of weekdays to do something else. So, I pursued some kind of, what's the term—where you temp locum tenants, locum tenant stuff? Yeah, I did some of that. I did some mobile kind of nursing home-type dentistry, where they just paid a day rate. And it was one of those companies I really kind of took off in a leadership role. They were new to the state, and I grew my role and responsibility in that regard, became their director for the state, and then ultimately the director for their 18-state company over the course of a few years. And so, I've always kind of had multiple plates spinning, whether it's kind of dentistry-related or investment-related. And so, you know, similarly, I was looking for ways to diversify my income outside of even dentistry, and invested in some things locally. That did okay, but it kind of wetted my appetite as far as wanting to do things that either made money without my two hands, or as I got further down the road of learning and exploring the stuff, there's things you can do to offset taxes, lower your taxable income. And then, you know, as I've transitioned out of the chair and transitioned out of ownership—I'm still part owner of my practice—but when you have big transactions, there's things you can do to lower your tax burden, if you choose to, on those things as well. So it's just kind of been a decade-long evolution of doing more and learning more and just becoming more engaged in that world. And so, kind of part of what we try to talk about on my podcast, and then ultimately, kind of within my private group, is shortcutting people from 10 years ago—version of me—to, you know, today's version of me where I kind of know more and know the better people to align myself with, and better opportunities that I feel are more proven and kind of, oh, saddled up with some really high-performing advisors who do offer that advice, and the opportunities through which people can make those investments. So, I'm trying to be kind of the dentist conduit from that world to our world. And, you know, that's my role and what I'm trying to help other dentists have that opportunity if they choose to.

Paul Goodman  

I love it. Dan, I want, you know, just take a minute to share with us about this, because I think dentistry provides, you know, our goal in this podcast is to help people learn about the cool parts of dentistry and also the challenges, you know. And I'm someone—I think there's this myth that, like, if you stop practicing clinical dentistry, it means that you hated dentistry. And I did a three-year GPR. I've taught 50 of my first implant courses. I've hired multiple dentists for my practice. So, I've liked being a clinical dentist, but I've wanted to do other things. And dentistry has given me that opportunity to, like, start a company named after an appetizer. That's pretty cool, right? And, yeah, I just would like you to kind of share with our audience, because I think there's this myth that, like, “Oh, if you don't practice dentistry all the time, it must mean you hated dentistry.” And I don't find that—I don't find that to be true at all. I actually think it should be something that should be celebrated. I don't know if you could have any comments on that, or just someone who's also done that, maybe to—whether it's to inspire our audience or just give sort of clarity to that, because you've done, like me, shifted gears with the amount of clinical dentistry you've done.

Deren Flesher

Well, I'll say, first and foremost, if somebody took away all these other opportunities and said I had to be in the dental chair to make my income for the next couple decades, I would not be disappointed in that. Like that, I do love dentistry, and would be happy to do that. But I also, even prior to dental school, I managed a business in my college town as a liquor store and convenience store, and so I kind of had managerial experience in that way, and the owner kind of took me under his wing and let me look at P and Ls and, you know, budget and all that kind of stuff. So I had kind of experience as a business owner, even though I didn't actually own that business. Like, that's kind of where my mind went. And I was very much a math and science guy. So, you know, that part appeals to me—the game, the business game of dentistry—is the more appealing side to me than the actual clinical, operational, you know, in the minutia in the mouth kind of stuff. And like I said, I wouldn't be disappointed or unhappy if that's what I was doing, but I like this other stuff more. And as you said, it's kind of leveraged, or that degree has allowed me to leverage into other opportunities. As you know, I helped build, and we've since sold, a software company called Mode. As I said, I've done all these investment things as I started this podcast with you guys. I've done other even leadership things within dentistry. I've been the Dental Director and Chief Dental Officer for a couple DSOs now. So it's just always been interesting to me to do other things that are not, not opposed to, but because of my dental degree. So all these other things wouldn't have been possible without dentistry, and so I don't think I'm necessarily wasting or taking that degree for granted, but I'm not using it in the traditional way, just as you aren't. So, I really enjoy this other stuff. I just think it's even a little bit more.

Paul Goodman  

It's, you know, dentistry takes a lot of arrows, and some of it—some of it are warranted with some of the things we deal with. But also, this is something to be celebrated. You know, whether you're a dental student listening to this right now, or an associate dentist, or even a practice owner who wants to do something different, I think it's a celebration that dentistry allows you to do cool other stuff. And I appreciate you sharing that.

Deren Flesher

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Rob Montgomery  

It sounds like some of what you're doing now, obviously professionally and as a career, you're working in different businesses, and, you know, I'm assuming that it's probably driven somewhat by investments or certainly awareness of opportunities and other business opportunities for dentists in the dental world. So, if you could tell our listeners about some of those alternative investments that may be available to dentists or attractive to them.

Deren Flesher

Yeah, of course. I mean, there’s kind of a few main categories. And I’d even zoom out a little bit further to say that what you’re trying to do with the investment is probably at least as important as what the investment itself is. And what I mean by that is, typically they afford at least one of these three components: whether it’s income, growth, or tax mitigation—and sometimes it’s a combo of more than one of those things. So, kind of for me, first and foremost—as I said—my first goal, my first foray into this was as an income opportunity. As I got further into the weeds and learning about what things could happen, I became more and more interested in the tax side of it. Because, you know, as most dentists figure out, we fortunately have kind of a first-world tax problem at some level, hopefully. And so, if you want to lower that, there’s obviously a lot of things that people talk about as traditional things, whether it’s, you know, retirement plans, or buying a heavy vehicle, or employing your kids, or the home office—and all those things are great. And I would obviously super encourage people to do that stuff. But at some point, you outgrow the meaning that those things have when you reach a certain income where the impact of those aren’t either not as proportional to what you’re making, or you filled those buckets up and there’s no more you can do there. You’ve fully funded all those things you could do from a tax benefit standpoint. And so, if you want to do something else, you’ve got to get a little bit more outside the box. And so, those are the things that I’m interested in—whether it’s, you know, oil and gas stuff, real estate. There are a couple deals that I’ve done that are purchasing equipment and other businesses that I then rent out for use. And so all three of those things have a tax component to them, and then they all have an income component as well—that’s equally as important. I think most people kind of get fixated on one part or the other, and I think it’s important for both of those things to be a part that’s worth pursuing on its own, so that you don’t get too wrapped up in, “Okay, I get a tax deduction for this. I get 30% off, essentially, this deal.” But if you’re getting 30% off the deal because of the tax benefit, but the whole deal goes to zero, you’ve lost your whole dollar. So I don’t want people to get too focused on either one. That’s kind of what we’re trying to educate on, as far as considerations and aligning with the right sponsors and operators.

Paul Goodman  

Deren, I don’t like that advice, because when I see low-calorie cookies, I just want to eat as many cookies and not have any sort of accountability for how many calories I’ve eaten. I say that as a joke because you kind of just made me think of that as you were saying, “Hey, I get a tax deduction, but the deal goes to zero.” And dentists, you know—why do you think, whether it’s from the days of Dentaltown, where there’s a thread that has a million comments on dentists can’t retire on time? You know, I have some thoughts, but I think it’s reasonable for dentists to be pretty confused about how to manage their money, right? Because it’s not talked about in school. You go from $400,000 in debt to sometimes making $400,000 in a three-year swing, which I think is a problem, right, for managing it. So tell us, maybe from square one, when people are coming to you, what’s their confusion? What’s their challenges? You know, whether they reach out to you through the podcast or your group. I’d like to know more about that.

Deren Flesher

Well, yeah, you’re right. I mean, we are very highly educated professionals, but it’s a very limited scope on what we are, you know, the experts in. But because of kind of our personalities and, you know, our life path, we tend to think we’re very smart people and can kind of figure it out. But I would, I would argue on the other side that these are very complex other worlds that we are not the experts in. We’re not even—we’re barely amateurs or novices in them. And so, in the same way that, you know, you—I don’t know everything about a car. I know it works, and I know when I’ve got a problem, I know where to take it. So, in the same way with my finances, like, I don’t claim to be an expert. I’m trying to learn what I can and distill it down and translate as best I can. But then, most importantly, I’m aligning with people who I’ve come to know and trust that are able to implement, understand the facts and circumstances of dentists, what we’re trying to accomplish, and making sure that those are the people that I’m sharing with other dentists to make sure that they go down the right path in their pursuit of some of these strategies. Because, as you said, a lot of them end up in a bad place where they pursue things that they shouldn’t—shiny object syndrome, syndrome, syndrome. You know, they’ve got, all of a sudden, a lot of money, and everybody knows it, and so everybody wants to see if they can get a piece at some point. And people get into trouble that way. So, I think that’s super important—to admit that you don’t know what you don’t know, and align with the people who do.

Paul Goodman  

I love that. And, you know, we have two dentists here, but Rob wants to go to Dennis Fantasy Camp one day. Deren said she could set that up for him. But, you know, every time I try to register, it’s kind of full. What’s amazing to me—and maybe it’s just how the human mind works—is, you know, dentists are so cautious about referring to the right endodontist, collaborating with the right specialist, but then sometimes it’s like, “Well, my friend invested in crypto. I should do that too.” And I’m always amazed. And I’ve probably done things like that myself, so I’m not excluding myself. But I’m kind of amazed those two competing thoughts exist in the same mind. And I’m assuming that your legacy point group, what happens inside of that for these dentists to come together? Is it like a mastermind for them to learn? Do they learn from experts there? Tell us more about that.

Deren Flesher

Yeah. So, we typically have at least two webinars a month where everybody can attend. One is usually a sponsor opportunity where the actual, you know, implementer and person who’s going to, you know, use the money for the thing that we’re talking about is going to come on and talk about their industry, their competition, their history, and longevity. And then I cover the deal, the facts of the deal, and all those income, growth, and tax parts that I talked about. Then, we usually also have a monthly Q&A that is not—there’s no sponsors in the room. It’s just me and the advisors who are, you know, the ones helping people understand and implement strategies to help them get where they want to go, whether it’s income, taxes, or growth. And, you know, it’s a potpourri free-for-all of what’s on your mind, what you’re thinking about in your specific circumstances, or maybe you want to talk about that deal we just discussed two weeks ago. So those are the two kind of set things. But then, I’m available as a peer and colleague to chat with them anytime, and so are the advisors. So there’s a little bit of formality around it with those scheduled things, but we really want it to be easy, casual, and accessible as well. I try to make myself available to anyone and everyone as needed to just chat things through as a friend. So it’s gone really well. We’ve been at it for this whole calendar year, and it’s a growing group. People are really excited about what they’re seeing and implementing there.

Paul Goodman  

There’s one more question—Rob, I’ll let you jump in a minute. But when I talk, you know, one thing I’d like you to share is, we talk about specifics, but most of my patients don’t say, “Thanks for these implants, Paul, I’m so glad my bone atrophy has stopped,” right? They say, “Thanks for these implants. I’m now not embarrassed to smile at our family reunion. Thanks for these implants, I can eat the things that I want to eat.” They don’t go back and say dentist stuff—they go back and say real person stuff. I’m just curious, from the people you’ve worked with in any capacity, like, what are some of the real impacts? Whether it’s less time in the operatory, sending kids to college, buying vacation homes—when dentists pay attention to financial fitness, what have been some of the things, you know, the results they’ve gotten out of it?

Deren Flesher

Yeah, so the immediate impact is literal dollars in their pocket if it was a tax situation. But also, they're starting to see their income change from its source. You know, they’re so used to their business and their own production being their source of income, and so as they start to trust some of these other strategies and operators to do solid work and make great returns with their money, they’re starting to see that, okay, my time horizon on what I thought was my retirement—I don’t have to accrue this massive nest egg and then just draw off this big pile of money. I can actually replace the cash flow from some of these opportunities, and maybe my 20-25, 30-year time horizon is now 20-30% less than that, because I’m starting to see that I can shift where my income is coming from.  So, I mean, that’s the general statement. Specifically, there’s a couple members who have said, just in this one year of implementation, I already have plans to shorten how many work days I have—like, my income is going to be the same because I’m doing these other things, because I’ve replaced part of my dental income with other income sources. And so for me to create the same amount of money every year, I can actually work less. And so they’re really appreciative of the immediate...

Paul Goodman  

Deren, that’s the only 100% thing in life. So when people say nothing’s 100%, I’ll tell Rob and Kevin, there’s never been a dentist who’s worked three days and wants to go back to four, two back to three, one to two. That is the one. That is the gravity of the dental world.

Rob Montgomery  

Anybody? Yeah? Like, who wants to work more, especially once you get a taste of the—yes, the good life, right?

Deren Flesher

Yeah, exactly. So, I’ve had at least a couple members that come to the top of mind that have said, “Starting January 1 of next year, I’m working a half a day to a day less per week moving forward because of the stuff that we’re doing here.”

Rob Montgomery  

That's pretty impactful. Deren, what would you say—let me ask you a couple of different, few different stages. Like, if—going back to somebody that's a dental student—and not a dental student—a recent grad, new in, recent grad, somebody that's graduated within the last two years—what are some of the sort of misconceptions that you see that that demographic has when it comes to retirement, investment, and, and finance?

Deren Flesher

Well, I'll say that even beyond before my own personal journey, just kind of speaking as myself, I wasn't that familiar with kind of private market investments. You know, I kind of thought of investing and specific government programs like 401(k)s and IRAs as all tied to public stock—stock market stuff. Like, I did not know that I could do other things and have these other opportunities afforded to me, or that I could direct my own 401(k) or IRA and invest in these types of things outside of the public markets.  That's all kind of things I've learned over the last six or seven years, to be honest. As far as how to actually pursue this strategy, I would also say that people—as I said a minute ago—people get this idea of the kind of freedom number, and it's a huge seven, usually eight-figure number of what do I need to amass to be able to just walk away and draw on that for the rest of my life with some sort of, you know, expected conservative return. You know, 2 or 3%, and if I just draw on that, I'm basically never going to touch the main pile of money here.  I would argue that there's way better things—or at least in my opinion, they're better—because they are higher return and immediate income versus the stockpiling of money. So, and I guess the last thing I would say on that is what I said a minute ago, where nobody really talks to dentists about: what do you do when you've filled up all these buckets that we're all talking about all the time, and all the typical stuff, with Section 179 and cost segregation and home office and all the things I mentioned.  You know, you should do all those things. But what do you do when you're making maybe half a million dollars or more? You know, maybe you're in the seven figures because you've got a massive practice, or multi-practice, or whatever. There's really not a lot of solid advice around that, and it really comes from a place of, you know, where's the return on my effort? For these big organizations, these big institutions—they're going to talk about all that stuff that's for the masses, but they're not going to waste their breath on something that's going to impact the 1%, because there's just not a lot of ROI in that.  And so that's—I'm trying to kind of layer on top of all those things that you should already be doing to be this next level of education for somebody who's exceeded what the mass affluent should be doing. This is for kind of high-performing dentists who are looking for something more.

Rob Montgomery  

So, that was gonna be my next question. So, like, you've got, like, the young dentist now—like, what should the 40-year-old dentist—you know, just say, practice owner—what are some things that they should be aware of, or, what are some misconceptions or failures that you see, that you could share?

Deren Flesher

Yeah, so I'll answer that question a little bit differently. You know, people who are looking for this type of stuff to do, it really starts to make sense for them. In my mind, this isn't like a hard line—this is just my opinion. But when people jump tax brackets, that's a place where people, you know, usually try to stay under a certain box. Are. But the biggest jump for people is from that 24 to 32% bracket. And for the year 2025, married filing jointly, that's $395,000 of earned income. So for people who are making essentially 400 grand, every dollar above that is taxed really high. It's a huge jump up to the 32%, and then you got state on top of that. So basically, 40 cents on the dollar is gone above 400 grand of earned income.  So for me, those are the people that I feel like would benefit the most from this stuff. Not that you couldn't implement some of these tax-saving strategies at a lower income level, but the impact it would have, proportional, is less. So that's in my mind.  And I guess, kind of parallel to that, a lot of dentists can very comfortably—and most people can live very comfortably—on what that income affords you. You know, it's roughly 25 grand after taxes in your bank account every month. And I don't know very many people that say they spend more than that. So it kind of aligns where, okay, this is at least as much money as I need to live, and if I don't spend it, or don't lower it, from a IRS perspective, I'm being taxed really heavily.  So both of those things kind of align to say, okay, what can I do with this money? I can go put it to work for me. I can maybe lower my taxes, and, you know, accelerate my retirement, or offer me, uh, optionality, or work less, or do the dentistry I love instead of doing all of it, or whatever—whatever your motivations are. It gives you that freedom to make those choices, because you've diversified how you're making your money.

Rob Montgomery  

Okay, that makes sense. So now, let's—we'll close out my sort of line of questioning here with the soon-to-be-retiring dentist. Somebody that's sold their practice or about to sell their practice, and they're at the stage of life where, you know, maybe we'll say—well, we'll just say the 65-year-old dentist. What are—what are some things that—that—that demographic should be—should be thinking about?  

Deren Flesher

Well, I would say it's never too late to do any or all of this stuff. And I would honestly say there's another layer on top of this that I pursued myself, personally. When you have a sale—if that's kind of where they're going at the end of this road here, is they're selling something—that sale of that asset is also taxed. Fortunately, it's at a lower rate than your income, but it's... it is money that just disappears if you don't do something differently.  So for me, personally, I made a decision when I sold a majority part of my practice and when, when Mode Dental was sold—even a few years earlier than that—to pursue things that lowered my income. Or, excuse me, my received money from those transactions.  So it's a different... the types of investments might be very similar, but the categorical shift that you have to have there—and I'll be more specific here in a second—is a little bit different. And so you have to do a couple different things, but you can lower your taxable receipt of that money, if you choose to.  So in a real quick explanation, there are lines that the government drew in 2017, and if you invested in parts of town that they wanted to incentivize, you'd get a big tax break. It's called an opportunity zone. So if you invest in these same things—I'm talking about real estate, oil and gas, whatever—but it's been drawn in the line that qualifies for that type of investment, you actually get to not pay the taxes on that received money for a delayed period of time. And all the money that you put into that also grows tax free.  So you get kind of a deferral on the original money and a total, um... not paying the taxes on all the growth as it sits in that fund. So, you know, that's... that's obviously a lot more complicated than we probably want to get into today, but that's the type of stuff we're talking about over in Legacy Point. And what I want people to be aware of so they're not just throwing dollars away.  You know, if—if you need to live on some of that money, or you want to have some of that liquid—of course, of course, pay the tax and keep it. But if you don't need or want all of it, or you don't want to pay taxes on all of it, there are things you could do to make sure that doesn't happen for you, if you choose to.

Paul Goodman  

Great, great explanation there. Now I think, you know, it's what—Rob, to go back to Rob's initial thing—is, it would just be great if, like, newer dentists were just aware of these things existing, whether they, you know, were going to utilize them immediately or not. I mean, one of my just biggest problems with dental schools—many—is just how they just are not responsible, and the skills they give you, from practice ownership to managing money, yet they charge you so much, right? It's like, it's crazy that, you know, your—the dental school tuition could be four or five hundred thousand dollars and they say, "Oh, do you have, like, time to fit in these, like, survival skills?" Like, it could be anything from how your practice P and L works—just something as simple as that. And they say, "No, we have to, you know, double down on the Krebs cycle memorization," as we kind of move towards the end. Just part—but I want to make sure I get this for our audience. You know, you—you were sound, you did your startup practice in 2015, and you are, you know, a DSI coach—is that Mark on? And, you know, that's such an important role for the DSI, you know, where you're helping these high-level practice owners. Kind of just tell us, you know, you went from private practice to partnering with a DSO or DPO. What were some of your motivations around it? You know, if our audience members were thinking about this because they wanted to do other things or—or not be a private practice owner anymore, what are some things they should be aware of? What’s went well for you? What motivated you to do it? I know our audience would love that.

Deren Flesher

Yeah. So for me, I'll do my best to answer all those. I might have to have you remind me some of it again as I go. But for me, my personal motivation was really around my personal life. I've got two kids, 10 and seven. Not that you can't do a lot of what you want to do as a dentist and a dental practice owner with your kids—because you control your schedule, typically—but I just wanted to be fully available.  And so, kind of going back to Dentaltown—you mentioned a little while ago—I don't remember who wrote this, but there's a thread on there that was about retiring twice. And I remember reading that in dental school, and it just kind of stuck with me. And whoever wrote that talked about building something up, getting to a place where you're kind of at an inflection point where you could keep going, but it's going to take some major overhauling. You know, I've got to physically expand, or, you know, move locations, or whatever—like, I kind of reached where this practice can go—and then sell it.  You know, maybe, like, when my kids are this age, sell it, kind of retire for this 10 to 15 years, draw that down, and then, you know, I still have the skill set. I'm going to maintain my license. If I want to get back in the chair at 50 or 55, there's nothing stopping me from doing that. And, you know, a lot of people look back and say, you know, "I didn't spend enough time with my kids," or, "I wish I'd have been present for this or that." And there's always studies about, you know, whatever it is—90% of your time with them is before they're the age of 18.  So I really kind of took all that to heart and said, "Okay, I'm gonna—I'm gonna try that." It's a little bit different. It's not something that most people talk about, but we have this unique licensure and skill set to afford us the ability to do that. So that's kind of my personal motivation.  And then, like I said, I didn't want that—you know, the whole reason around what I talked about a minute ago with, like, mitigating taxes and all that kind of stuff—was to make sure that money went further and lasted as long as I needed it to to make this actual plan a reality. So that was kind of my personal why.  As far as the specifics of what's going on with me and how it's going—it's great. You know, I know that there's good and bad with every partnership, whether it's a big corporation or just another individual, but so far, so good. You know, both sides have kind of honored what they said they'd do. The check cleared—so that was the first step. And most importantly—do what? Most importantly—most importantly—yeah, the check cleared.  And, you know, everybody's kind of maintained what they said they would, as far as roles and responsibilities. And as we were saying a little bit offline before we started here—I was in the office this morning—so it's not like I just quit doing anything. But no, at least I've got a partner in this. And if I need help—either an HR resource, or hiring or firing, or, you know, budgetary decisions—I've got somebody to bounce things off of. And it's been nice to not feel like 100% of the risk and responsibilities are on my shoulders moving forward.

Paul Goodman  

I think what you said there, Deren, especially. I know you, you know you, we had talked. You said, a lot of my coaching sessions with dentists start off, they say they want to talk about numbers, but it winds up talking about people and feelings and that things — which is normal. I think, as a practice owner myself, my brothers, it's very hard for anyone to understand that it just doesn't end at five o'clock. And you're a business owner too, Rob — it doesn't end at five o'clock. And I think what you said there, it's the 100% — you said, 2r risk and responsibility. And I actually think dentists are fairly cool with the risk part, but it's that 100% responsibility — that at 7:30 p.m. at night you're answering an email about some vendor that you need to make sure gets something done so you have health insurance. And I just think, you know, I didn't — I had a dad who was a dentist, and I just think it was a lot less complex back then, because I didn't see him doing that at eight o'clock at night. And I see us having to do so many things outside the operatory. Maybe dentistry, like, you know — there were no computers, there was no, you know, CBCTs. And dentistry itself, as a technology, is awesome — but the complexity of running it, you know — I know I'm ranting — has just become challenging. I can see how a partner is welcome.

Deren Flesher

Yeah, HR and PR—by far, the two hardest parts of what we do. And I think that's kind of the common thread, like you said, with most of my coaching calls. We—I'm supposed to be the numbers guy, one of the numbers guys with Mark—and we always touch on, at least a minute, but it's always something up or downstream from there. It's some interpersonal clash, or understaffing and stress, or, like you said, you're getting phone calls and emails off-hours, and those are all the things that really wear on people. The dentistry is the easy part, to be honest—especially once you're more than a couple years out of school—that's almost auto-pilot. At some level, it's all the other stuff that really... and it never goes away. For better or for worse, you just have to kind of lean in and embrace it if you want to, or, like, do like I did and bring somebody on to help you with that part if you choose.

Rob Montgomery  

Yeah, it's—that's not unique to dentists. I can tell you, you know, it's like, obviously, the—and technology, for better or for worse, has allowed us to do all this extra stuff. But the problem is, it allows us to do it, and it allows you to do it at any time of the day, and it's, you know, it's certainly challenging. I mean, I, for me personally, the days that I just get to do legal stuff are like, wow, this is great, but it doesn't happen as often or as frequently or as long as I would like.

Paul Goodman  

I always say this now, I always say that before anyone signs up to go to dental school, and I would be, I've done this many times, they should observe a practice owner, and they should care a lot less what happens with putting in a crown or extracting a tooth, and see all the things that happen outside that operatory. Because I think they would say, you know, we have a whole on-stage and off-stage thing in our office, you know? And they would say, what's going wrong? Here I go, what's going wrong? It's just going Tuesday, right? And I think they just need to understand that the chaos of running a dental practice, which can be very rewarding in changing people's lives, there's just a high cost behind the scenes. And I think some people are built for that and embrace it, and then others are like, I had no idea I signed up to do all this stuff. Right?

Deren Flesher

Yeah. I mean, I remember early on in my career thinking, you know, those people that work Monday through Thursday, and they would occasionally work, kind of by appointment, on a Friday to do something bigger. And my young brain was like, why don't you just try to fit this into the four days? Or, why are you doing this at all? I just, you know, figure it out on the days you're already scheduled. But as, like, the further I go, I realize, the more I realize, like, that's really the only day, probably, if the whole five-day week, where they really get to focus on the dentistry. At that point, like, the other days, they're just kind of running around with their hair on fire and 1,000 plates in the air. And, you know, that—that one appointment probably goes the best, even though it's the biggest and most technically, on paper, stressful, because they get to focus and don't have all these other things going on in the office. That day is probably honestly pretty peaceful.

Rob Montgomery  

This is great stuff. Deren—yeah, really. Thanks for sharing what you do with our audience. And if people want to learn more about Legacy Point Group, or want to find the Wealth Beyond the White Coat podcast, or get in contact with you, how can they do that?

Deren Flesher

Yeah, so Wealth on the White Coat on all your podcast platforms, so just look it up there. We'd love to have another listener. LegacyPointGroup.com is the website, and if you'd like to email me, it's just Deren, deren@legacypointgroup.com. Love to chat with you, learn about what you have going on, and see if being a member of our group would be a benefit to you. So any one of those things.

Rob Montgomery  

All right. Well, thanks for taking the time, Deren. It's great chatting with you. Thanks, Deren, and Go Eagles. Thanks, guys. It's neat. You know, it's just another dentist doing things differently, finding, you know, other avenues to make money and just be rewarded and to help other people. I mean, building a community, just similar to you, Paul.

Paul Goodman  

Yeah, I mean, it’s an awesome opportunity to see how creative people can be with their careers in dentistry. And, you know, we talk a lot about the challenges, and Deren shared that too, from like, I put HR and PR, but also you get to have a lot of control over what you can do with your schedule and create unique opportunities for what you want to do with your life.

Rob Montgomery  

Yeah, and you know, so many people that, you know, once you get out of the Congo line, you know, it can, it kind of gets interesting, maybe more scary, but yes, definitely more interesting. Totally. All right, thanks, everyone, for listening. Paul, it's always a pleasure.

Paul Goodman  

Thanks, Rob.

Bumper  

Thanks for listening to another great podcast with the Dental Amigos. And don't forget to tune in next time to have the dental business demystified. If you're looking for more information about today's podcast, you can find it on the dental amigos.com if you're looking for Paul, you can find Paul at drpaulgoodman.com and if you're looking for Rob, you can find him at yourdentallawyer.com This podcast has been sponsored by Orange Line Media Group, helping dentists and other professionals create content people love. Find out how we can help you take your business to the next level at www.orangelinemg.com. Till next time.

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